the pharmer

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Posts by the pharmer

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  21

  Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

  by the pharmer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

  when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

  i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

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  the pharmer

  Listener, thank you for those kind, encouraging words! I will definitely be taking a look at those threads.
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  21

  Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

  by the pharmer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

  when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

  i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  the pharmer

  I don't know why, but I can't get the last sections to undo the italics. Sorry. Not trying to emphasize anything.
• 
  21

  Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

  by the pharmer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

  when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

  i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  the pharmer

  Listener,

  I appreciate your two cents.

  Yes, here is the approach:

  I had said to this person,

  Here’s an idea, maybe when discussing these sorts of things we should essentially take a piece of paper and make 3 columns – the middle one strictly containing the bible’s writings ‘as is’. Then, after reading those passages or sections of scripture, fill in one of the other columns with how we understood it. The remaining column would be reserved for any understanding by an individual or group that we wish to examine, but it must be their understanding as described by them. In doing this, we should compare everything to the middle column, as it is the ultimate written authority, and avoid making the mistake of assuming our own understanding is infallible. Good plan?

  Using this method, I think we should take Galatians (as written) and essentially make it the middle column, and take our own understanding of it and put it in our own column (it should not conflict with the middle column in any way, and if it does we have each other to hold one another accountable to that). The remaining column is reserved for whatever we are examining (a specific belief or whatever), which may or may not have anything to do with the scriptures in the middle column. Whatever we put in that remaining column to test, ought to be tested against the middle one and we can see if and how it holds up.

  Listener, I highlighted the portions I think answer your questions and suggestions. Let me know if it doesn't. I figured some people might want more details.

  I agree with you, this was not a book that was chosen to shed light on their views, but rather, it was part of another conversation we had when discussing the Bible and how many organizations (including Mormonism and WTBTS) take the stand that one must come to their exclusive group and follow their works of law in order to attain the fullest benefits (ultimately salvation). A certain point of view entered into that conversation -- justification (to God) by faith, not works -- and now that point of view is in the process of being tested. Gotta start somewhere. I acknowledged that in the process of testing, certain scriptures might be neutral or not applicable on the subject. We also realize that one might interpret things differently, but if we can identify the methods used in interpreting and understanding these things (since we will have put those understandings in our own words), even if we don't agree, we can aknowledge there is more than one way to understand written words, we will have at least understood each other's thought process in forming a conclusion. Perhaps, during the course of testing something, certain other scriptures might be more convincing at clearing up these areas of different interpretations -- perhaps.

  Hope this helped make this seem more relevant.

  Thanks
• 
  21

  Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

  by the pharmer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

  when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

  i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  the pharmer

  Understood. Nonetheless, I've appreciated your input!
• 
  21

  Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

  by the pharmer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

  when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

  i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  the pharmer

  No apologies necessary.

  I do think I've come across the wrong way (blame it on my inability to communicate my thoughts clearly) and for that I apologize. I would like to clear something up. This isn't being approached as a debate (been there, done that, got nowhere with this individual...you're right, at the time they wanted to teach me). Believe me, this person has wanted me to examine JWs via the typical way, and it didn't take me long to realize how bias that was! Since then, they have agreed (to my surprise) that if we are going to examine beliefs, we need to test the different views as objectively as possible and see how it holds up to scrutiny. (Perhaps it is because there is a friendship that has developed over the past 1 and 1/2 years since that first experience.) We are trying to hold each other accountable. Normally this person would have dropped or changed the subject and not entered into an open examination like this.

  I didn't mean to imply I thought you could tell me for certain what this person would do, sorry about that. Rather, I thought there might be someone out there (like you) who has perhaps looked at Galatians as a JW and addressed or fought against (or just maybe thought about) this mainstream belief. I though you could perhaps give a perspective I have not thought of that somehow makes Paul's meaning contradict what I see. From what I see, that is exactly what would have to happen in order to use Galatians to counter this belief. Personally, I don't know how there is any possible way this could be done, even if one takes his words out of context. But like you said, that doesn't mean it can't be done...

  You said, Is there some way they can say that Galatians contradicts the point you are trying to highlight? Yes

  Now you know, it's not that I'm trying to highlight it; we're trying to test it. I guess I asked the question poorly when thinking about what I was after. What I should have asked was, can you tell me some different ways that have been used by JWs to counter this central teaching of Paul's, where they use only Galatians to do so? I don't care if it's honest or not, that will come out upon scrutinizing the logic and reasoning. All I want to know is, in what ways do you know of that Galatians has been used to shoot down this belief? (edit) Maybe not shoot down, but counter.

  Sorry for the confusion, thanks for you patience.
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  21

  Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

  by the pharmer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

  when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

  i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  the pharmer

  I don't mean to get off focus by addressing what you just said. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you (I will go back and read it more carefully when I get off work). You said, besides, Galatians isn't understood as teaching "justification by faith in Christ" without works by either Jehovah's Witnesses or "Christendom" in general. I thought it did pretty much teach this when I read it. I mean, isn't that what verse 16 in chapter 2 states?

  Gal 2:16
  16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

  But back to what I was trying to determine, I'm not saying Galatians proves that justifcation is by faith in Christ and not by works (although that is what it says almost word for word), but rather, this individual wants to test this point of view (which, as you know, they do not believe) against all of scripture (including Galatians). Is there any possible way in their mind they can say that Galatians contradicts that point of view? It seems absurd to me to think they could since that point of view is about word-for-word what Paul stated and I cannot see anything in Galatians that contradicts it...and I'm trying to look for it.
• 
  21

  Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

  by the pharmer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

  when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

  i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  the pharmer

  Thanks JuanMiguel,

  So, even if they can't reconcile their own belief with Paul's words, do you think there is any way the JW mindset can use Paul's message here (of justification by faith in Christ, not works) to counter the idea of justification by faith in Christ alone (without using other scripture)? In my mind, this seems like an obsurd question for me to have to ask, but...
• 
  21

  Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

  by the pharmer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

  when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

  i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  the pharmer

  Okay, I have another question. When taking this person's summary at face value, and assuming they believe it, how can the whole idea of being justified by faith PLUS works not be contradictory to this specific message of Paul's in a JW mind? Especially when you look specifically at certain passages like this one:

  Gal 2:16, 20-21
  16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
  ....

  20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
  21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

  I'm trying to understand how this person reconciles what they just wrote with what they believe. It seems blatantly contradictory...it's not even an interpretation issue from what I see. Where exactly is the change in what is being written and what comes out the mouth (i.e. belief) occurring?

  Does my question make sense?

  Thanks
• 
  21

  Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

  by the pharmer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

  when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

  i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  the pharmer

  Is it actually a summary copied from a WT publication or the NWT? Any ideas on how I can confirm?

  Thanks much.

  Pharmer
• 
  21

  Newbie: Galatians overview - original or textbook?

  by the pharmer in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but i have a jw friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information.

  when it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, i'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses.

  i can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  the pharmer

  I hope this doesn't seem irrelevant, but I have a JW friend who seems to shut down whenever information opposes her belief, regardless of who has initiated the information or the source of the information. When it comes to this person's expressions of their religious beliefs, I'm not accustomed to getting thorough answers that aren't textbook responses. I can't tell if the most recent correspondence is their own words or not.

  The response in question has to do with Galatians. They wrote a summary paragraph on each of the 6 chapters, and I guess I would like to know if it is really their own personal thoughts put into words, or if it is a copied response. I would like to think it is their own summary, but how can I tell? I certainly don't want to offend.

  Summary:

  Chapter One: Paul warns those of the congregation that there are some that are trying to pervert Christs' message. He speaks of who he was before he became one of Christ's followers. Reminds them that he comes to them with a message from God and not from men.

  Chapter 2: Paul speaks about prejudice towards the uncircumcised. How even among followers of Christ there was a division. He reminds them that though they at one point may have been Jews, they are no longer bound by laws and traditions. He reminds them that if they continue to hold these laws, then Christ indeed died for nothing because he was a fulfillment of the law.

  Chapter 3: Paul again reminds these early Christians that are freed from the law. That they must now walk by faith. He reminds them of the promise that God made to Abraham and to his seed. He points out that it was through Abrahams faith that he was declared righteous in the eyes of God. He reminds that because they all follow Christ, they are all Abrahams seed.

  Chapter 4: Paul here tells the Galatians that a child, whether in line to be an heir or a slave is still enslaved to the "elementary things of the world." He reminds them that when the time was right, God sent his son to be born through a human woman and was enslaved to the Law of the Jews until he fulfilled the law through giving his life, a purchase in exchange for freedom. He reminds them that when they did not know God they were slaves to things of the world but they are now free. He then adds, " But now that you have come to know God, or rather now that you have come to be known by God, how is it that you are turning back again to the weak and beggarly elementary things and want to slave for them over again". He compares them to his children whom he had once seen so zealous and happy and now were allowing themselves to be dragged away by false teachings - namely going back to law and tradition.

  Chapter 5: Paul again reminds the Galatians that they are free because of the ransom of Jesus Christ. He states that whether a man is/gets circumcised - it of no benefit either way. He reminds them that love is of primary importance among Christs followers. He reminds them that they must walk by spirit, with spiritual promises in focus. That those who walk by the flesh, by fleshly and temporary worldly desires - will not inherit God's Kingdom.

  Chapter 6: He tells the Galatians that with strong faith, they can help those that may have taken or will take a false step - but to be wary when doing so that they themselves may not also be misled or tempted. He admonishes them to help eachother, carrying the burdens of one another. He reminds them that he who thinks he is something when he is nothing is deceiving his own mind. He reminds them that each person will have to prove what their own work is. He admonishes them to be good to all people, especially those of their faith. He reminds them that neither circumcision doesn't mean anything, neither does uncircumsicion and may peace and mercy be with those that those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct.

  To conclude, what is Paul telling the Galatians in the letter to the Galatians: To be careful not to digress in their spiritual advancement. To remember why Christ gave his life, and to remember that the law has been fulfilled. He is asking them to love one another, to help one another and be careful not to be misled.

  Thanks for any reply.

  Pharmer